Who's going to sample Warhammer when it comes out this fall?

evilash wrote:

Shadow wrote:I I played DAOC up till they consolidated the servers. Albion (on most of the servers) was just too big of a power house and the other factions could not compete...so they quit PvPing

we as a clan must have the responsibility to not let this happen to us

Yeah, I imagine that, at least as far as Dagoth goes, we're pretty much the top of the heap. If they ever consolidated us into another PvE server I can only think of one or two guilds (Brotherhood of the Spider comes to mind) that really approach us in terms of size.

I think I know what you mean about it being slow, yet fast.

Since this is made my Mythic, I am assuming they are doing the same thing they did in DAOC...which is one of gripes about DAOC. The RvR were amazing, yes...but the actual combat sucked ass. The attacks were really slow, and most of them you had to watch your character move in order to use a skill, such as a Bleed skill that was based off an evade. But..all the attacks hit really hard and most people's health was not very high, so people would die really really fast. There would be many times where I would be running through one the gates and instantly die and go...WTF just killed me?!?!?! And then realize it was a Ranger that shot me from stealth (which leads me to one of my favorite DAOC bug when the game launched)

This was a GREAT bug when DAOC first came out...Archers used to be able to fire off their first shot while still being stealthed. Archers also had a skill called Critical Strike, which would usually hit for 3x a normal shot...so this was usually the first shot that was fired. Also, if a person was sitting down, the damage they would take would be 10x. So...a archer fires a critical shot, from stealth, on a sitting target would mean instant death. Oh...and no potions, everything used stamina when fighting, so this would mean lots of sitting to regen (so lots of people dying from archers). If the archer killed its target on the first shot, they would NOT unstealth.

Was a happy fun time playing an Archer then, lol...too bad the Archer classes became crap after a series of nerfs for the Frontiers expansion.

So...anyone playing WAR can probably look forward to this kind of stuff...where Mythic completely destroys classes in order to balance them in PVP.

I miss playing my Shadowblade in DaoC, going up to a sitting clothie and 1 shotting them was hilarious. The sprinting far enough to hide after was a joy as well.

Good comparison though, the game is still like that. Even a Bright Wizard can super nuke a heavy tank in 5 seconds. They just stack a few spells build up combustion and BOOM the tank has no clue what just occured.

Archers are about the same, along with Witch Elves. You tag people for a large amount of damage then pray...

They have added a new ping-pong system which is fun though. A CRAP load of classes have knockbacks and not like AoC, these send you flying upwards or 10 meters in a given direction. Couple that with abilities that drag an opponent to you with a tentacle or escape abilities like a Witch Elf that makes you bounce off a person and land about 5 meters away and combat looks... bouncy?

Very realistic and sticking with the Warhammer model as you can tell. I know my Orcs in the tabletop could cause a unit to bounce away 2" each phase. Just like my Witch Elves used cavalry to sling shot themselves away from combat!

Kaza

Just got the notice for the Tier 1 and 2 Chaos phase today, (why the hell are we doing this phase again?)have to laugh that yet another patch they are trying to improve server performance and enjoyment.

I amk waiting to read forums after War is released. People are already making me crazy with AOC vs. WoW comparisons. This will not even compare to how it will be with War vs. WoW at this point.

Can someone explain what RvR means?

I stand corrected. I had heard rumors that the PvP in War was going to be much better than WoW. Honestly, it wouldn't take much. I'm kind of surprised that after all the experience these guys have in making an MMO, all the lessons they could have learned from WoW, and common sense, why they can't make a decent PvP system.

If Warhammer was going to be a single player adventure game, I'd snap it up in heartbeat just to play it because I played the tabletop game. Doesn't seem like it's worth much more than that.

One of the things WoW truly did well was come up with a unique art style that made really crappy, out of date, low polygon graphics look playable. Given how much WoW stole from Warhammer, it's kind of a shame that they blatantly ripped off this graphical style from WoW.

In the end, AoC seems to be the only MMO which is worth my monthly fee...

RvR Realm vs. Realm PvP. DAOC used this method. AOC has one server with this. Each race against the others.

What does Realm Vs. Realm mean? Do players in the game conquer territory and create their own "realm"? I assume it's not realms like in WoW where people from multiple servers fight against each other...

Guys, its a CLOSED BETA for a reason. They don't want the game judged in the state its in, so they don't show it. If you're beta testing it at this point, its to help improve it, not see if you like it. They haven't even added all of the classes yet, and they're just now starting the PVP/RVR balancing.

Honestly I don't se how you couldn't like the PVP in WAR, it has every kind imaginable. It has keep sieges, battlegrounds like Wow (instances, balanced teams up to 48vs 48) and nation versus nation open field battles (the massive battles from daoC) Each player zone is divided into PvE and PVP areas, with less PvP in lower zones. Then they have "PVP" servers where you can PVP pretty much anywhere except safe zones. There is no way its "kiddie" since its far more complex than WoW OR AoC. It IS 4 to 5 months away from being done, though. AoC is too, but they're asking us to pay for now anyway.

Anyway a realm is the entirety of a nations territory, and they are divided into a racial pairs (greenskins vs dwarf, light elf/dark elf, human/chaos) and tiers. The greenskin tier 1 and dwarf tier 1 have a pvp area between them (open field, not a battleground) Tier 2, 3, etc are the same, and the final tiers contain the main racial cities that are sackable. Each realm also has scenarios and battlegrounds which are balanced/instanced battles that add "points" to the war effort, as do frontier keep battles. How it all ineracts is too complex to explain here, there are podcasts explaining it available to the public


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Armor and graphics in general suffer even more by judging a closed beta build focused on playability. They have paraded weapons and armor previews through the newsletters for a year now, and there is gong to be tons if they have time to add them.

I guess they could go the Funcom route and just launch without them then promise them a few patches down the road. But hey, everyone loves wearing brown leather skirts, right?

I thin one thing that both WAR and WOW have that is lacking in AoC is "character" For a game with such stunning visuals and a supposed "mature" license, the world is very vanilla, which is criminal given that they have the Conan world to play in.

Anyway, without some major revamps and patching, you should be out of AoC content by the time WAR lauches

Gaiseric wrote:What does Realm Vs. Realm mean? Do players in the game conquer territory and create their own "realm"? I assume it's not realms like in WoW where people from multiple servers fight against each other...

Consider RvR means Evil vs Good. When joining the server you pick what side you wish to play and fight for. It's an eternal struggle for land and power vs. the other.


Concerning Warhammer specifically here: http://www.war-rvr.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=187&Itemid=31

That's one of the pioneering things WoW did that I think helped the MMO community. Realm vs Realm (WoW terms)...

Each server is considered a realm in Warcraft. Your realm was in a battle group consisting of same style servers (PvP, PvE, RP, etc)... When you go into battlegrounds or other instanced PvP events, you can face anyone from any server/realm in your battle group.

It made for some great Realm competitions. Hopefully, other MMOs will pick up on that and implement it into their framework. The rivalry and bragging rights definitely fuel the PvP fires.

If what Brakk states is the actual meaning for Warhammer, then that's just plain sad for a game that is supposed to be founded on PvP. There has to be a way for all servers to interact in Warhammer and I hope they do implement a Server vs. Server engine.

Not sure yet, but I voted yes as a "maybe." Last time I saw a game-play movie, it was really lacking. I'm sorry, but at the time, WoW had better graphics.

I will be checking it out. i also already have the CE ordered. I always try any new game that looks interesting to me, even if I already have one I am playing that I love. You never know what you might be missing if you don't give it a shot.

Yes, we have all heard the...its CLOSED beta, blah, blah, blah... I wasn't born yesterday, and I have been in beta for so many MMORPG's that I have lost count. The graphics and gameplay are still pretty much the same at release.

There is no way its "kiddie" since its far more complex than WoW OR AoC

Um...AoC has mini games, instance pvp, and 48 vs 48 sieges. The ONLY thing different is that it is not faction based.
How can you say WAR is more complex than AoC when 1) you haven't experienced any siege battles in AoC 2) since WAR is closed beta, im sure you havent experienced siege battles in that either

So....
I think the biggest problem that will be with WAR is everyone is riding on the PVP being great...and the problem that will arise is, since IT IS faction (realm) based, there will always be an imbalance. In open area battles, you will run into problems with one side having too many people, if the battles are limited [like 48 vs 48] then you run into problems where the larger faction has long queue times.

Anyone that played DAOC will know that Hiberian almost never took keeps, or defended theirs. And anyone that played WoW will know that Alliance had some long ass wait times for their pvp mini games.

This will be my first time trying out a guild vs guild siege (never got that far in Shadowbane). I like the idea of AoC where the amount of PvP will be based on the server size, and with number of guilds battling for keeps. If you have looked over the Dagoth guild list...there is a crap load of guilds, and with only 8 keeps available, im guessing there will be constant PvP battles.

Shadow wrote: If you have looked over the Dagoth guild list...there is a crap load of guilds, and with only 8 keeps available, im guessing there will be constant PvP battles.

If we are the "meal" of the server then everyone else is snack food.

Cherek Stoneshoulders wrote:Guys, its a CLOSED BETA for a reason. They don't want the game judged in the state its in, so they don't show it. If you're beta testing it at this point, its to help improve it, not see if you like it. They haven't even added all of the classes yet, and they're just now starting the PVP/RVR balancing.

Honestly I don't se how you couldn't like the PVP in WAR, it has every kind imaginable. It has keep sieges, battlegrounds like Wow (instances, balanced teams up to 48vs 48) and nation versus nation open field battles (the massive battles from daoC) Each player zone is divided into PvE and PVP areas, with less PvP in lower zones. Then they have "PVP" servers where you can PVP pretty much anywhere except safe zones. There is no way its "kiddie" since its far more complex than WoW OR AoC. It IS 4 to 5 months away from being done, though. AoC is too, but they're asking us to pay for now anyway.

Anyway a realm is the entirety of a nations territory, and they are divided into a racial pairs (greenskins vs dwarf, light elf/dark elf, human/chaos) and tiers. The greenskin tier 1 and dwarf tier 1 have a pvp area between them (open field, not a battleground) Tier 2, 3, etc are the same, and the final tiers contain the main racial cities that are sackable. Each realm also has scenarios and battlegrounds which are balanced/instanced battles that add "points" to the war effort, as do frontier keep battles. How it all ineracts is too complex to explain here, there are podcasts explaining it available to the public


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Armor and graphics in general suffer even more by judging a closed beta build focused on playability. They have paraded weapons and armor previews through the newsletters for a year now, and there is gong to be tons if they have time to add them.

I guess they could go the Funcom route and just launch without them then promise them a few patches down the road. But hey, everyone loves wearing brown leather skirts, right?

I thin one thing that both WAR and WOW have that is lacking in AoC is "character" For a game with such stunning visuals and a supposed "mature" license, the world is very vanilla, which is criminal given that they have the Conan world to play in.

Anyway, without some major revamps and patching, you should be out of AoC content by the time WAR lauches

I'l be as politically correct as I care to be and won't post on this thread again.

#1 They have been balancing the RvR the entire time, as for not adding classes that makes "balancing" ridiculous. Since every time they have balanced it thus far a new class emerges and changes the synergy of the fights. In the last 6 months to "counter" this they have made the dark and light classes almost identical in every single way.

#2 It does have a lot of RvR combat, however half of them are not fun. The other problem so far has been spreading everyone too thin. For an RvR game it can be really hard to find balanced RvR anywhere. The mini-games only require X people, so one side will outnumber the other almost every game. The world RvR is still a joke and revolves around hiding near NPCs.

#3 As for being "kiddie" yes WAR is by far the most kiddie game I've seen as an MMO. You might now want to hear that but the game is very simplistic and makes WoW PvP look far more in depth. There is a huge lack of creativity and people turn in their beta keys weekly from losing interest. My EQ guild and I continue since we've been in beta since the first focus when WAR was a very different game. Along with trying to hammer away at the flaws and see what EA will adjust. (Anyone who thinks Mythic is still calling the shots withought EA's approval is in denial.) To end this, the game is NOT complex, any time my talent trees consist of 3 100% linear routes. No branching, no variations.. just add points and take a skill if it suits you. Yeah...

#4 They know as well as the beta testers do that RvR does not work right now. Since it is Realm Vs Realm one side is going to have a higher population and consistantly win. Same with all the mini-games adding points and even PvE questing adds points. Once again though when we are in beta and you see 500 goodies and 200 baddies, guess who controls most zones? Hence why I enjoy AoC's PvP model more. This allows for alliances, backstabbing, turncoats and treachery. WAR will just be about numbers and zerging... which still works btw ala DAoC.

#5 Who the hell said they have PvP servers? It's something "in the wings" but don't hold your breath, with the way the world is currently set up I do not see how this would function.

#6 Most of the PQs, Public Quests, are imbalanced since they are based around damage doen or healing done. If your a tank, good fing luck getting the PQ drops! Now if your a Witch Elf, have fun farming the PQ drops, or a nuker... they do just as good if not better on the AoE PQs. The first time you do a PQ it is fun, the 30th time when your grinding a PQ for a drop you really truely need just to compete in RvR it gets old.

#7 The world setup is not complex and very easy to explain. It's an MMO on rails, lets use High Elves and Dark Elves as an example. You make a High Elf Swordmaster and start leveling, each series of quests at a warcamp eventually send you to the next war camp and on down the line you go. Literally down the line, so far every "zone" has been cut into equal thirds with Evil on one side, Good on the other and the RvR with battle keeps in the middle.

So while you head South for the next 40 levels you do quests, some interesting and a lot of PQs. In fact you have to do the PQs since they have the only truely good loot. So at each Warcamp you stop to do the PQ about 2-12 times. Depending on the PQ and population you might be able to do them and you might not. They are not possible to solo and for most you will need a true tank, healer and dps. They are timed so if you do not have enough dps then after that time the PQ resets and you lose.

This brings about the "spreading everyone to thin" scenario. Each area has a few PQs for each camp. Each level range has a PvP mini-game, 1-10 10-15 16-20, just a bunch. Then each area has the RvR area in the middle with their own quests. The result thus far has been either you run with your guild and stay the same level 24/7 or your unable to participate. Also note that your higher level friends cannot help you if you fall behind, the quests won't count, the PQs will note that he's too high to be there and the RvR will turn him into a chicken if he attacks a grey player.

Anyhow you eventually get through the fun and your level 40, yay now we can really rock in RvR! Wait... you picked the wrong side, Dark Elves outnumber you 3 to 1 during your play time and each time you set foot in PvP your ganked in 5 seconds. Bright side, you can reroll Dark Elves and kill the remaining High Elves on your server!

#8 I've done every single focus and maxed at least 1 toon every time. I've done the city sieges, I've killed the GM Dragon and I've figured out most of the mini-games with the wonky additives. While the game is far from complete, what I've seen so far adds to up something akin to Hellgate London beta. A lot of folks will sit down with the game and enjoy it the first run through, it's when the imbalanced portions (most of which they are leaving untouched currently to see how it pans out in release) come into play that interest and involvement plummet. Unless they get a huge rework in the balance for player concentration and RvR stability it will be just a fun game for kiddies.

Kaza

One last note since several have asked. My old EQ guild and I are all current or former Yahoo! employees and we enter game betas as such. We have done over 20 MMO betas now and been responsible for over 300 individual documented changes. I'm not new at this and we do our utmost to help a developer match their target audience.

HOLY

WALL

OF

TEXT

lol..awesome write up btw.

#4 They know as well as the beta testers do that RvR does not work right now. Since it is Realm Vs Realm one side is going to have a higher population and consistantly win. Same with all the mini-games adding points and even PvE questing adds points. Once again though when we are in beta and you see 500 goodies and 200 baddies, guess who controls most zones? Hence why I enjoy AoC's PvP model more. This allows for alliances, backstabbing, turncoats and treachery. WAR will just be about numbers and zerging... which still works btw ala DAoC.

Yeah, thats basically what I was trying to say in my post, and I am glad I am not the only one that sees this.

Count me in, definitely now that I know we'll have a Hammerfist branch.